Bill Cates [00:00:01]:
Welcome, welcome. I have always been fascinated by the practical application of what neuroscience, the study of the brain, can teach us about human motivation, decision making, and behavior. And in my book, Radical Relevance, I devoted an entire chapter to the Neuroscience of Relevance. So if you’re a financial advisor, you already know that logic doesn’t always drive client behavior, to say the least. Right? Most clients bring with them a mixture of fear, anxiety, scarcity, thinking, and a bunch of mistaken assumptions. Stories that they’ve told themselves for so long, they believe them to be true.

Well, in this episode we’ll unpack what neuroscience tells us about how people think, feel and act around money. And how understanding both your clients wiring as well as your own own wiring can lead to better conversations, deeper trust, and greater success. But first, I have to quickly tell you about my newest book, the Hidden Heist. Stop Robbing Yourself of Lasting Wealth. An irresistible tale of financial redemption. This book is unlike anything I’ve written before. It’s a business parable co authored with Jeff C. West that’s suspenseful, insightful, and I think you’ll find surprisingly fun.

Just like today’s show will do. This parable, meaning a story with hopefully profound lessons, explores the beliefs and assumptions that keep many from building wealth or seeking financial guidance. It shares essential financial lessons that everyone should know and encourages the readers to seek the guidance of a financial professional like you. One advisor just orders 75 copies of the Hidden Heist to give to his clients and prospects, and several advisors have told me they’re hosting, I guess we’ll call them Money Story conversations with both their teams and their clients, with two main goals in mind. First, they make sure their team’s money self talk doesn’t hold back the growth of the practice. And second, to bring more empathy and create more meaningful conversations with their clients. Not to do financial therapy, but to help their clients feel fully understood and appreciated. This enjoyable read combines a great story with an important message and it’s available in hardcover, paperback, Kindle and Audible.

Curious. Go to thehiddenheist.com thehiddenheist.com now this episode of the Top Advisor podcast is made possible by Oberle Risk Strategies, a specialty insurance broker focused on insuring high net worth. Individuals and families are across the US Specifically through home, auto and Umbrella. More about Oberle in a few minutes as I tease at the top of the show. Today we’ll be exploring what neuroscience teaches us about how and why people make financial decisions. And we’ll unpack the science behind fear and risk and confidence and reward. And discover why logic alone rarely drives financial behavior. Something you already have seen many times, I’m sure.

With our featured guest, we’ll look at how you can help your clients move from survival mode to growth mode, and how understanding your own brain wiring can make you a more effective, empathetic and successful advisor. Tessa Santarpia is the founder and CEO of Visualize in360, a neuroscience-based wellness company rewiring the root causes of anxiety, burnout and performance blocks. Blending mind, body science, behavioral psychology and systems of human potential, she explores the subconscious patterns that shape how we think, feel and make financial decisions. And she’s here to help advisors and their clients unlock greater adaptability, enhancing clarity, judgment and performance under pressure. Tessa Santarpia, zooming in from Los Angeles, California. Welcome to Top Advisor podcast.

Tessa Santarpia [00:04:17]:
Thanks so much for having me, Bill.

Bill Cates [00:04:19]:
I know it’s a long ramp up to introducing you, so let’s dig in. In preparation for our conversation today, Tess, I’ve kind of come up with four main topic areas that I think will make for an interesting, informative conversation for those listening. My intention is to explore each topic from two perspectives. First, we can apply the concept to financial planning clients, meaning what might be going on in the brains and minds of prospects and their clients. And then can shift that perspective to that of the advisor, what may be going on in their brains and minds and how that can impact their behavior with either their clients and or their team members. So it’s a pretty big assignment. Are you ready?

Tessa Santarpia [00:05:02]:
Definitely ready. Let’s get into it.

Bill Cates [00:05:04]:
All right, so the first overarching topic is negativity bias. So from what I can gather, it seems that most, if not all humans come into this world with what’s often called a negativity bias, that the brain is wired to notice threats more than opportunities. So how does this bias influence clients reactions to market volatility, financial news, loss aversion? And how can advisors use brain based techniques to calm clients and redirect focus towards long term goals?

Tessa Santarpia [00:05:42]:
Yeah, so cognitive biases are systematic errors in thinking that like you said, all humans have. And for the human brain, we all have a negativity bias. It’s not a flaw, it’s actually a survival mechanism. And for 200,000 years, noticing what was dangerous kept us alive. So we’ve evolved with that bias in the brain. So it’s not that clients are necessarily overreacting, it’s more that their biology is perceiving a threat when none might even be there. So this Negativity bias affects us in the way of the brain, giving two to five times more weight to negative information. It also activates the amygdala, the brain’s fear center and threat detector, which narrows our vision and like limits our perception.

Tessa Santarpia [00:06:30]:
So when someone sees red on a chart or a market downturn, the nervous system treats it like a physical threat and their body treats it as such.

Bill Cates [00:06:38]:
Wow.

Tessa Santarpia [00:06:39]:
So yeah, to the survival brain, losing money feels like losing a sense of safety.

Bill Cates [00:06:45]:
So they may not, what may seem like overreaction because we know that over the long term the market goes up. I, I’ve likened the, the stock market to someone walking up the stairs with a yo yo, Right. It goes up and down. We know that, we know that logically we shouldn’t necessarily react negatively. It sounds like clients almost clients can’t help it. Right. They’re just wired to do that.

Tessa Santarpia [00:07:09]:
Absolutely. And like you said, that’s when they forget their long term strategies. They become risk averse, they self sabotage out of fear, you know, hit that panic button. During volatility, they’re not able to think clearly, Blood flow cannot reach the higher order rational thinking parts of the brain. And more of those subcortical fear based mechanisms in the brain that we share with all mammals are actually kicking in.

Bill Cates [00:07:35]:
Wow. So what’s an advisor to do?

Tessa Santarpia [00:07:40]:
Yeah, so there are actually very simple neural techniques that advisors can do to re engage that rational part of the brain. So the first is a technique called reframing that’s really just shifting the narrative and helping clients gain perspective in the moment. So not only reminding that volatility is in danger, it’s movement. Movement is what creates returns, but also having visuals, stories, handouts, newsletters that can show how many times the market has corrected and recovered. Another technique is also anchoring. So tying the client’s attention back to stable reference points, their long term plan, their past recoveries, the compound growth that you know is going on beneath the scenes that we may not be consciously aware of because the brain really is going to calm when it starts to see those familiar reference points and just remembering that you’re not calming the client. You know, I think we talked about this a little before. It’s not that you’re acting as a therapist, you’re actually calming the process system that estimates threat and safety.

Also keeping in mind that we have mirror neurons, specialized cells that copy the emotional state of the person in front of us. So the client is not just listening to your words, they’re actually feeling your nervous system. So doing some grounding you know, steps before you meet with someone is a important financial planning tool because if you are anxious, the client will become more anxious. If you’re more grounded, the client’s going to become grounded. You are really guiding that energy exchange between you two.

Bill Cates [00:09:18]:
So a couple of follow up thoughts on this. It sounds like the reframing and the anchoring is kind of a logical response to an emotional, you know, they’re, they’re going through an emotional thing and we’re kind of bringing logic. But I, I, I mean, is that correct? And, and so therefore we got to be a little careful that we’re not, you know, saying, yeah, don’t worry, this is, you know, I mean, we’re, we’re not ignoring their emotional reaction. Right. Does that make sense, that question?

Tessa Santarpia [00:09:50]:
Absolutely. You don’t want to dismiss what they’re feeling and those emotions because the client will be, won’t be able to really engage and find belief in what you’re saying. It’s really a better idea to acknowledge their fears, affirm that those fears are normal and part of this process, but then still do techniques to heighten those more rational parts of the brain.

Bill Cates [00:10:16]:
And then if we do that with the right kind of energy, they’ll start to kind of mirror our energy a little bit and I guess just naturally they’ll kind of calm down, they’ll get out of that, that more primitive emotional response. Is that, is that right?

Tessa Santarpia [00:10:30]:
Absolutely. Just remembering that you really are guiding the energy exchange of that conversation. And there is a process called physiological entrainment where we start to entrain to other people through breath, posture. You’re actually calming their nervous system by showing up with the energy that you want to emit to them.

Bill Cates [00:10:52]:
Wow. So let’s shift this just a little. All right. So if, if our clients experience this and they’re human, and as advisors, we’re human, it happens to us too. Right. The market up, the market down, the business doing well, the business not doing well, that negative bias is operating. What, what can an advisor do to kind of help? And I guess that’s that pre work, maybe even to an appointment.

Tessa Santarpia [00:11:22]:
Yeah, definitely. And, and it’s remembering that advisors have the same brain wiring as their clients. So the amygdala, the fear center is still getting hijacked, which means that it’s amplifying the feeling of rejection, failure, loss, pain, potential embarrassment. And then the prefrontal cortex for logic and planning is getting overridden. And this is what’s leading to those hesitation, maybe self sabotage, playing it small. So the Biggest thing is to become aware of what your particular behaviors are in. In this process. You know, are you obsessing over one unhappy client instead of focusing on the dozen of great outcomes? Are you fearing rejection when you’re going to ask for referrals? Are you overthinking risk to the point inaction and procrastination and getting a handle on what’s actually going on is going to create the space to then reframe some of those behaviors.

So a big one that I like to do with all my clients is when anchoring, anchoring, mirroring, mirroring what you would do with your clients. But in these states of stress, in these states of panic or just confusion, uncertainty, list out three wins that you’ve had today or even over the course of the week. Because the brain is predictive, and by going over the wins and what you want it to focus on, it’s priming the brain to notice more of those opportunities. So then you’re actually going to feel like more progress is being made. And ultimately that feeling is what’s going to drive motivation and momentum. And then also I like to advise to do one slightly uncomfortable outreach task each day, even in the midst of stress, because. Because that is also priming the brain to notice there is something on the other side of fear. I don’t have to be kind of panicked in this one mode that my brain is making me think I’m stuck in when anchoring.

Bill Cates [00:13:20]:
So would it be, I mean, is this kind of like affirmations, or is this like, you know, you write down? I mean, are you. Are you reflecting back to the winds you had, or are you thinking forward to the winds you want to have? Help me understand it.

Tessa Santarpia [00:13:35]:
Yeah, you’re. You’re thinking back to the wins that you’ve already had, whether it’s that day or that week, because the brain is filtering your perception of reality based on the internal state that it’s in. So if it’s focused right now on threats, those opportunities, the missed opportunities, the failures, potentially what’s not going right is going to be magnified. So when anchoring is a simple technique to kind of level the playing field and remind your system to prioritize, focus on opportunities and what’s been going right.

Bill Cates [00:14:11]:
Fascinating. I love this stuff. We could probably spend a long time with that. But I got a few other concepts I want to cover. This is probably all these are probably related. So the next one I had up was survival mode versus growth mode. You know, I just did a TED talk recently, and one of the Things I talked about with my parents, relationship to money and their kind of money story. And they grew up in the Great Depression, so their money story was naturally cautious.

They saw money as something to protect and not something to grow. So that’s probably similar that survive, protect versus grow. So when the nervous system feels unsafe, scarcity, shame, past money, trauma, whatever, people may hoard cash, right, or want to go to cash, they avoid investing, they make fear based decisions. So how can advisors and their team, I guess, recognize the signs that they’re stuck in, that this client may be stuck in survival mode and what can they do to bring them back? It sounds like it might be a similar thing as before, but slightly different. I don’t know. Tell me.

Tessa Santarpia [00:15:25]:
Yeah, it’s helpful to keep in mind that the logic isn’t gone, it’s just temporarily offline. So the survival brain has really taken over from that thinking, rational part of the brain. So you can really start to detect an emotional hijack. Or when the survival brain takes over as agitation or urgency, kind of the feeling of we need to do something right now, catastrophic language, you know, what if we lose everything again? Another cognitive biases that’s making us fixate on an errand thinking. Conversely, there’s also narrowed thinking, so focusing and exploiting one bad data point while ignoring others. There could also be trauma based responses where it’s shut down, avoidance, delayed responses, people aren’t following up with you, they aren’t doing what they’re supposed to be doing. And then also just emotional tone shifts which can convey that fear, that shame, that anger.

Bill Cates [00:16:28]:
So it sounds like by understanding this, understanding what’s going on for our clients, we bring a little bit more empathy. Obviously we’re I guess less likely to judge them negatively because this is kind of human nature in a sense, at least for a lot of people. Does that make sense?

Tessa Santarpia [00:16:51]:
Absolutely.

Bill Cates [00:16:52]:
Yeah. I remember my. When Covid hit and the market crashed for a couple months there in March, April 2020, my brother in law got on the phone with me, says I’m going to cash, I’m going to cash. I go, no, George, please don’t do that. And it was just so emotional, he was so worried, he was so fearful. I thought I talked him out of it and I didn’t. And he never got back in before he passed. So it was quite the shame.

Bill Cates [00:17:18]:
So I’ve seen that firsthand. I’m. Our listeners have seen that many more times than I have. All right, so it’s, it’s kind of recognizing this and it might be a way the client is behaving, maybe just a little more extreme than what they’ve done before. Right. You can just can tell there’s like something off. Right. And then what do you, you step in again with the reframing and the anchoring.

Bill Cates [00:17:45]:
Is that the solution? Well, no.

Tessa Santarpia [00:17:48]:
So I think you, you mentioned it. You know, normalizing the reaction is so important because when we experience feelings of shame and then we don’t address them, we don’t allow the body to process and release that feeling of shame. It actually gets stored in the body and affects the brain’s predictive models. So that’s why when you encounter, you know, the opportunity to get back in the market, the opportunity to just invest in something not even money related, could be other things in life. There’s going to be a heightened threat signal there and you may not even be consciously aware of it, but it is actually happening in, you know, the subconscious behind the scenes. So always normalizing the reaction and validating that the response makes sense and our brains are built to protect us from loss, then it’s really important to do some identity shifting. So reminding someone that you know you are someone who makes sense decisions based on your long term vision, connecting them to those statements helps pull them out of present immediate circumstances and reconnects them to that future oriented person. So it’s really important here to highlight process goals, not just the outcome ones.

Tessa Santarpia [00:19:02]:
So normalizing setbacks, re centering on what you can control and restoring that agency to do the habits and behaviors that will shape you in the long term.

Bill Cates [00:19:15]:
So advisors can also slip into a survival mode. Worrying about quotas either from above or self imposed, retaining assets, comparing themselves to others. I mean who does that? How can advisors use these tools, neuroscience, to regulate themselves so they stay in a growth mode. Sounds like it’s similar, but there are they doing it to themselves and they need someone to help them with this.

Tessa Santarpia [00:19:47]:
Yeah. So keeping in mind that I want to distinguish. Emotions are not feelings. So emotions are electrical, chemical, hormonal signatures created by past experiences.

Bill Cates [00:20:01]:
Hold on. Emotions are not feelings. Wow, I’ve never heard that before. So say that again then. Let’s, let’s get, let’s, let’s anchor that one.

Tessa Santarpia [00:20:11]:
Okay. So yeah, emotions are electrical, chemical and hormonal signatures that are output by the human nervous system, meaning they were created by past experiences and then the nervous system has tagged them as meaningful or threatening. We can get into that a little later. But essentially you have to think of emotions as your physiology. This is not something we have conscious. Conscious Control over. You can’t think your way out of emotions. You can’t change your emotions by wishing or trying.

Tessa Santarpia [00:20:48]:
They live in the body and the subconscious just as much as much as they do in the mind. So you have to realize when, when you have an emotional hijack, it isn’t a sign of weakness. It’s just a sign that your brain and body are doing what they were designed to do, which is protecting you from future lost by reacting to anything that resembles that past danger. What happens here is that when you feel those physiological sensations, the mind starts interpreting what they mean. And that is that interpretation is feeling. So feeling doesn’t necessarily resemble truth because we could feel that something is more threatening that it is. We could feel that something is the end of the road when it’s clearly not. Our mind can make up interpretations that are not always based on truth.

Tessa Santarpia [00:21:40]:
So that’s why it’s really important to understand the difference between emotion and feeling. One as a mind interpretation and one as just an objective physiological response.

Bill Cates [00:21:53]:
Wow. I, I’m just, I’m just, I’m taking that in because I’ve never heard that before. But I guess, I guess maybe that’s why they call it feeling. We’re. We’re feeling the emotion. Right. We’re feeling that neurological physiological response. And then.

But it does the feeling kind of come into the brain as a thought? I mean, we call it a feeling, but it’s more of a thought responding to the emotion. Does that even make sense, what I just said?

Tessa Santarpia [00:22:23]:
Yeah. So thoughts and feelings create feedback loops. And that is when. And that creates a loop. Then with the emotion that reinforces, okay, we must be in danger. I’ve had the sensation. I’m interpreting the sensation as danger. And now my thoughts are starting.

Maybe I’m starting to ruminate. Maybe I’m starting to, you know, remember the last time that I messed up, I made a mistake. And those three different things are creating a loop that is making us perceive the moment as truth.

Bill Cates [00:22:56]:
And that’s why those are hard to get out of sometimes, I suppose. Right.

Tessa Santarpia [00:23:00]:
It’s. It’s nothing you can talk yourself out of in the mo. In the moment.

Bill Cates [00:23:06]:
When I get in those moments, I. I know what I do. I change my state. I change. It’s like music. Or I’ll, I’ll work out. I’ll go do some push ups. I’ll just.

I’ll do something that just change whatever the moment is. Does that make. Is that the right thing to do? Is that, does that help? Or how does one get out of that loop.

Tessa Santarpia [00:23:28]:
So partly the first thing to know is that emotions that are not processed in the body do not go away. They actually get stored in the body as different tension, different tension points. And we know that we’ve been able to track this over time. There’s different tension in different parts of the body. And unfortunately what happens for a lot of us is that we just, we don’t want to feel and experience that emotion. So we start to distract ourselves with busy work, you know, shoving it down, maybe numbing ourselves out, that kind of distraction that just lodges that emotion deeper in the body and actually comes up when we have similar types of experiences or threats. So we’re not necessarily really escaping it. The most important thing you can do in that, in that scenario is to really get out of the head, drop into the body.

This is when you just want to allow the, that emotional wave kind of to pass through you. It doesn’t take long. You know, it’s 60 to 90 seconds up to three minutes. The research is, you know, still a little variable on that, but setting a timer. And this is why it’s really important to build practices that help you connect with the body. Interoception, breathwork, vagal toning, all of these things create the space to allow the emotion to actually be processed and passed so that it’s not going to keep coming up and triggering those thoughts and feelings over time. And then like you said, once you’re able to do that, it’s time to shift the state. Not to dwell in those states, not to reinforce kind of that original sensation.

It’s now turn turning on music, you know, doing some gratitude, getting yourself to shift.

Bill Cates [00:25:20]:
But feeling it first.

Tessa Santarpia [00:25:22]:
Yes, need. Absolutely needing to feeling it.

Bill Cates [00:25:25]:
There you go. Yeah, all right, that’s, that’s. I get that. Look, I, I’ve got two more big ideas I want to explore with you. I want to talk to you about how emotions can hijack decision making. I guess emotions, feelings, I will talk about that. Early memories can impact clients and advisors alike. But first, here’s a quick word from the folks at Oberle Risk Strategies who make this show possible.

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I’ve gotten to know their team and what really stands out is that Oberle treats your clients exactly how you treat your clients. Meaning they’re responsive, they give great advice, they build relationships and conduct themselves with high integrity. Just like you. Right. I’ve been impressed and I think you and your clients will be too. If you think Oberle might be a fit for one or more of your clients, I’d encourage you to reach out to them. So I’m going to give you the email address, the ur, not the email, the website address. And it’s in the show notes.

That’s OberleRisk.com private clients. So it’s in the show notes. But let me spell it out for you. Oberle O b e r l e-risk r i s k.com / PrivateClient again in the show notes. So Tessa, before we get into a couple more topics, if you would provide your contact information. If somebody wants to learn more about the work you do and tap into your incredible expertise and, and how you work with folks, what’s the best way for them to reach out to you?

Tessa Santarpia [00:27:50]:
Yeah, you guys can reach out to me on LinkedIn, Tessa Santarpia or go to our company website, visualizein360.com beautiful.

Bill Cates [00:27:59]:
That’s Tessa. T E S S A Santarpia spelled S A N T A R P I A and LinkedIn is probably a great place. All right, so let’s get into the next topic, which is money memories, early wiring. For my TED Talk, one of the things I talked about, I hope I got it right because a lot of psychologists seem to agree that our relationship to money or the stories we tell ourselves, whatever starts to solidify when we’re, when we’re pretty young. You know, in my book the Hidden Heist, we talk about early money memories, family fights, scarcity, sudden windfalls. They all can shape adult financial behavior and that can then shape the children’s thinking and all that stuff. Right. So how can advisors invite conversations that surface these unconscious patterns without sounding like a therapist? How does awareness of money memories help advisors build deeper trust?

Tessa Santarpia [00:29:10]:
Yeah, so it’s kind of like you said, because these our first beliefs about money formed when we were so young, we cannot keep this kind of discussion just limited to a therapist’s office. A lot of people still see therapy as, you know, something just to do when they have mental health issues and Whatnot. And although an advisor is not taking on the role of a therapist, they are still helping them rewire those beliefs. So it’s really important to bring awareness to what beliefs are there, especially some of the most toxic beliefs a lot of us grew up with, which is money doesn’t grow on trees. Money is the root of all evil. And you know, I really enjoyed your book with the hidden heist, talking about different aspects of the psyche that really start to raise questions and concerns that we all have. So definitely helping clients to not only identify those, but also giving personal experiences and prior clients client experiences that can help the client start to identify where those systematic errors and biases and thinking are coming up.

Bill Cates [00:30:19]:
So I guess I’m not off base by suggesting that giving a copy, forgive the shameless promotion, but giving a copy of the hidden heist to clients as kind of a soft way to get into that conversation. Here’s a story about the money stories. You know, what did you think? How’d you react? What came up for you could be kind of a soft, easy, natural way to engage clients in that conversation. Does that make sense?

Tessa Santarpia [00:30:46]:
Yeah, definitely. And I, you know, I think the format of a parable is really powerful because it speaks to the emotional and the associative parts of the brain, the same areas where the money beliefs are actually formed. So you’re not just really learning a lesson that you feel kind of distanced from. You actually feel it. And you can insert parts of yourself and your story when you’re reading it. So when you feel something, you remember it more. And that’s when you can really rewire from it.

Bill Cates [00:31:15]:
You know, when I was delivering my TED Talk, I could see Ned’s head, Ned’s heads nodding. And I think what, what happens is when we talk about that, then their stories just come up naturally in their own head, right. They self reflect and it comes to life. I guess that’s what a story will do, right? People will self reflect on whatever the story is talking about. So. All right, so advisors, they have their own money stories, right? They grew up with the same, what do you think I am made of money? Money doesn’t grow on trees. Or. I’ve done a lot of money story interviews.

And one that stands out for me is this gentleman by the name of Michael who’s his parents mostly. His dad was re resentful of people that had, you know, of wealthy people, people had a lot of money. He, you know, he thought they were evil, greedy cheats, grifters, whatever. Right. And so Michael kind of internalized that and you can’t become something you resent. Right. And so he had to work on that. He had to re first.

He had become aware that was going on for him and that was a barrier to his building wealth. And then work on that. All right, so advisors have their own stuff, right? So how do they recognize this? How do they reframe their own stories to bring more empathy to their client relationships?

Tessa Santarpia [00:32:43]:
Yeah. So I think an important point that you mentioned is sometimes, especially in the modern world, that comparative part of us where we’re constantly comparing ourselves to others and it makes us feel very overwhelmed and very small and very distanced from the goals that we want. You think sometimes, you know, scrolling social media and seeing what everyone else is doing is, you know, beneficial because it makes you dream, but in actuality, it actually makes that stress part of the brain activate even louder. The converse of that is actually strengthening a growth mindset where you’re not just studying other people and what they do from a comparison standpoint, you’re actually learning those same strategies. So there’s a really cool thing called the Roger Berenston fact. I might be saying that last name wrong, but up until him, no one could run a four minute mile. Years, you know, in the history of humankind.

Bill Cates [00:33:42]:
Yeah, Roger Bannister.

Tessa Santarpia [00:33:43]:
Yeah, Bannister. Yes. You know, up until him, no one could run that. And then as soon as he did, you know, five to 12 people within the next three years followed suit. It works within the mind where we do need a point of reference. We do need to see that that’s possible in to move past our limitations. But it has to come to us in the form of growth mindset learning. Rather than look at this person, they did it.

You can too. So I think, especially when advisors are working with clients, not only using other clients as a reference point, but helping them understand the strategies that got them there on a daily, monthly, weekly basis. Reverse engineering goals is really important for that.

Bill Cates [00:34:29]:
Could you put a little more meat on that bone? I When you say reverse engineering goals and, and the process that. Could you explain how that might play out a little bit more?

Tessa Santarpia [00:34:39]:
Yeah. So when you have a high, let’s say like an overarching goal that you want to accomplish within one to five years, you know, it falls in between. Then when we think towards that goal, it seems really lofty. And that is what is kicking in the survival part of our brain that says you’ve never been there before. It’s probably unlikely that you’ to get there because look at Your current conditions. Now again, we can try to talk ourselves out of that. But the survival part of the brain is reinforcing those thoughts and feelings. So reverse engineering is really breaking down a goal into small manageable parts.

And you start with doing that annually, quarterly, monthly, weekly and daily. And you really want to get into the mindset of, of who am I, who do I get to be now each day, each week, each month. Whether it’s, you know, just a few actions here or there, you’re, you know, redoing your entire schedule. Who do I get to be in order to make that goal happen. And this is really where it comes down to the process oriented goals of who you get to become in the process, rather than just that outcome.

Bill Cates [00:35:49]:
Sounds like, you know, in terms of just saving and investing, setting aside the right amount of money, making a habit of it. All right, the, the ongoing behavior necessary to reach the goal is kind of what you’re talking about.

Tessa Santarpia [00:36:04]:
Yes.

Bill Cates [00:36:05]:
All right. Well, last but certainly not least concept I want to touch on is I think you call it emotional hijacking or it’s so financial decisions or are often impulsive and reactive. We kind of have already heard kind of why that might happen, right. Panic selling, avoiding difficult conversations. How can advisors recognize when clients are emotionally hijacked and how they might bring their clients back to a more rational state? Yeah, that’s the question, I guess.

Tessa Santarpia [00:36:40]:
So I will definitely recognizing the signs of when they are in those states. So you know, urgency and catastrophic language, those emotional tone shifts, but also then recognizing where their behavior is starting to shift from what they again, that identity that you both had set in the beginning of, you know, your first client meetings, when those shifts start to happen, realizing again, this is the survival part in the brain. It’s not something that I can rationally talk them out of. So it’s going to be something that they’re going to have to habituate their mind to start understanding. So again, having some sort of visuals, client case studies, things that you can employ to actually shift from the survival into the logical part of the brain. Every, you know, when I work with advisors, we always come up with kind of like a list of different things to employ for each client and then really testing out which one works for which. Because every brain is so different, you know, not one is going to work for all. So having go to strategies, but being able to kind of formulate them based on different clients.

Bill Cates [00:37:52]:
So advisors may face hijacks of their own, you know, stress before big prospect meetings, especially early in their career. This this thing that’s known as the imposter syndrome. Right. Do I, am I really bringing value? Am I, do I really know what I’m talking about? Oh yeah, I experienced that. I think it’s kind of human to do that. You know, talking about fees. Right. These emotions can hijack that.

So what can advisors do to, to not get hijacked? I suppose.

Tessa Santarpia [00:38:26]:
Yeah. So a lot of the time it weirdly hijacking brings a temporary sense of release and control when we do something that, you know, feels kind of innate to the survival brain. So when we, you know, when we trace a new fad or we switch perspective strategies too fast, you know, we jump between tools and systems, it’s actually giving us this sense of kind of weird release, which is why we tend to keep. Keep repeating it. The important thing here is to recognize that those releases are grounding us into just an immediate reward. It wants to keep us focused on the present. What we need to do is prefer immediate or prefer long term gains over those immediate short term goals. So reconnecting yourself with not only the dopamine driven decisions that are guiding you to anticipate and expect things, but anchoring those decisions in those long term safety habits, revisiting, you know, your identity shifts, revisiting your long term plan, stepping into the person that would be doing those things and what kind of behaviors and mindsets they have, those things are going to happen.

Help shift the mind and body back into the growth strategy.

Bill Cates [00:39:43]:
You know, you mentioned something kind of an aside conversation real quick. I can’t remember where I heard this, but you know, this dopamine, the feel good. What is it? Is it a. What is dopamine? Is it a. What kind of chemical is it?

Tessa Santarpia [00:40:01]:
Yeah, so a lot of people think dopamine is the pleasure chemical. It’s actually serotonin, but. But dopamine is the anticipation chemical.

Bill Cates [00:40:10]:
Yeah, that’s what I want to. So we feel that it’s not the gratification that brings the hit of dopamine, it’s the anticipation of the reaching the goal or accomplishing something. Correct?

Tessa Santarpia [00:40:23]:
Yes. Yeah. So it spikes before the reward, not after it.

Bill Cates [00:40:28]:
And that’s why the reward is maybe I don’t want to say letdown, but it’s not, it’s a little bit of a letdown compared to the dope, the dopamine anticipation. Am I getting that right?

Tessa Santarpia [00:40:39]:
Yes, yes. Unfortunately, sometimes the dopamine spike can be a lot more or they can condition us to expect it a lot more than just the happiness that comes from the achievement or the reward.

Bill Cates [00:40:51]:
And I also heard that if the risk is higher for that reward, in other words, if the risk of to get to that award is higher, then that spike of dopamine will also be higher there. Right, because you’re kind of overcoming that risk. So that somehow gives you that jolt of dopamine. I hate to get into this little off track thing, but I’m just fascinated by that. Is that correct? Did I hear that right?

Tessa Santarpia [00:41:14]:
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, you can observe it in yourself whenever you have something big that you’re really looking forward to. You know, the, the nerves are there, which is a signal that the dopamine spike is, is heightened.

Bill Cates [00:41:28]:
Interesting, interesting. So I’m going to shift a little here. Tessa, on your website you state your firm’s mission, and it’s a big one. I’m going to kind of read it. Here reads Our mission is to help 1 billion people rewire their brains and manifest their most meaningful goals. Not through guesswork, but through personalized tools rooted in science and backed by data for brain based healing. That’s a lot of brains and a lot of wiring. A billion people.

Bill Cates [00:42:03]:
Tell us a little more about that mission of yours.

Tessa Santarpia [00:42:06]:
Yeah, it is a big mission for sure. But we really believe that mental well being and human potential, especially in the area that we’re talking about today, it’s a global issue and the tools now exist to help people create this real science backed change at scale. So being able to leverage neurotechnology that identifies so quickly the invisible patterns that are quietly shaping someone’s performance and their emotions and their decision making, it’s revolutionary. And we’re finally at a point in history where we’ve even been able to experience this kind of technology. So this kind of combination is really what’s making that mission possible.

Bill Cates [00:42:54]:
Well, I wish you a lot of success on that. And I know you’re helping me with the rewiring, so that’s. There’s one.

Tessa Santarpia [00:43:00]:
Love it. We got to get you in a brain map.

Bill Cates [00:43:03]:
Oh boy. Sounds painful.

Tessa Santarpia [00:43:06]:
No, it’s completely non invasive. It’s only. All it does is read the electricity that’s put out by your thoughts, which is really cool because it can see stress patterns, emotional patterns, how efficient cognitively that you are, how well you sleep, all just from, you know, 10 minutes of reading those patterns. So it’s pretty cool.

Bill Cates [00:43:32]:
Brain map. I’m writing that down and we’ll talk about that offline.

Tessa Santarpia [00:43:36]:
Okay.

Bill Cates [00:43:36]:
My featured guest on today’s show has been Tessa Santarpia, founder and CEO of Visualize in360. I want to thank you for clearly a fascinating, at least to me and helpful conversation and being a feature guest on Top Advisor Podcast.

Tessa Santarpia [00:43:54]:
Thanks Bill.

Bill Cates [00:43:56]:
You bet. This episode the Top Advisor Podcast is made possible by Oberly Risk Strategies, a specialty insurance broker focused on insuring high net worth individuals and families across the us specifically through home, Auto and Umbrella. Check them out as a resource partner at oberly risk risk.com private-client and oberly risk Strategies is the company name and it’s also all in the show. Notes to you the listener of this podcast may ask a small favor. If you like this episode or like the podcast in general, please leave a five star review on the platform you’re listening to the show. Not all platforms have a place for reviews, but if yours does, most of our listeners are on Apple podcasts about 75% so. So I know that does. I’ll be grateful.

Bill Cates [00:44:47]:
Thank you. Don’t forget to check out my newest book, the hidden heist. Thehidden heist.com by the time this airs, my TED Talk should be out TEDx Talk. So if you go to the TEDx channel on YouTube you can find my TED Talk TEDxTalk. I should say there is a difference between TED and tedx slightly. And then don’t forget about if you wanna get some free resources, I like to say free but valuable resources, go to referralcoach.com resources referralcoach.com resources this is Bill Cates reminding you that ideas do not make you more successful. Only acting on those ideas will bring you the success you desire. Thanks for stopping by.